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John Jantsch (00:00.792)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is Jon Jantsch. My guest today is Sarah Nay. She’s the CEO of Duct Tape Marketing and the author of Unchained, Breaking Free from Broken Marketing Models. She spent over 15 years helping small businesses grow through a strategy-first marketing approach. This is actually part two of talking about her new book. You can go back. have it in the show notes. So we’ll link all these shows together. I think we’re going to end up doing three episodes on it.

In this episode, we’re going to talk about the anti-agency shift, a practical blueprint for replacing dependency on vendors with in-house capability, lean AI enabled systems and strategic leadership. So Sarah, welcome back to the show.

Sara Nay (00:44.911)

Thank you. I’m still getting used to being called an author. It’s new for me. It’s a new title. It’s exciting. Thank you.

John Jantsch (00:47.566)

Well, congratulations. So, this is part two of the book. So again, I remind you to go back and listen to what we talked about in the first part of the book. In the previous episode, we’re up to about chapter five or so. And it’s kind of a turning point in this part of the book where you talk about the old model fading, or not just fading, but that it’s actually burning out. What’s actually breaking down inside of

agencies right

Sara Nay (01:19.096)

Yeah. And so when I, we say the anti-agency model, I always like to reinforce it’s, it’s not that agencies are bad. It’s that we love agencies and I feel like I have to keep saying that because there are people and I don’t want to offend anyone. It’s the model and how it’s structured is what I see breaking apart. And so on the agency side, which we’ve lived ourselves, we’ve experienced all of this ourselves. There’s always been a lot of issues in the way things are structured.

John Jantsch (01:24.238)

We love agencies.

Sara Nay (01:44.798)

One being that a lot of agencies are treated as vendors and doers. They get a lot of scope creep. There’s a lot of burnout in the agency space. It’s hard work. As an agency owner or leader, scaling with profitability has always been a challenge. There’s a lot of issues when you are in the executor role as an agency. But also, this book is written for agencies, but also for small businesses, because there’s a lot of issues on the small business side as well.

when they’re over reliant on agencies for execution. So I’m not saying a small business should never execute, or outsource, but if they are outsourcing, they should still understand the strategy, they should understand what’s happening, they should own the accounts or systems that are being executed within. And so it’s more of a collaboration effort.

when you’re working with outsourced vendors, then simply I’m paying this company and I have no idea what they’re doing. And I don’t know if we’re getting results, but I keep paying them because I always have, which a lot of people unfortunately fall into that bucket.

John Jantsch (02:47.222)

Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting. I mean, I’ve said for years that a lot of small businesses, it’s actually beyond outsourcing. kind of abdicated, you know, it’s like, don’t, you know, you do that over there, like, cause I hate marketing even. mean, you hear that even in, and it’s, it’s a real shame because I mean, what do you, what do you, where have you seen, maybe they’re not even hidden costs. Let’s just say costs of outsourcing everything, or just as you said, basically,

Sara Nay (02:55.897)

Yep.

John Jantsch (03:15.886)

you know, throwing it to somebody and saying, I don’t even know what they’re doing over there. I just write the check every month. What are, what are the real costs of doing

Sara Nay (03:22.714)

You lose control, honestly, and you have no idea if your marketing is working or not. And so I was speaking to a prospect a while back and they were a home remodeling company, family business, really nice, great people. they were like, we are paying someone, I think it was around $10,000 a month for paid ads. And they’re like, we don’t know what they’re doing, if it’s working, some percent of that is going to their fees, some percent of that is going to spend.

John Jantsch (03:24.365)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (03:50.326)

And so we had a conversation. started asking him number of questions and I was like, well, can we look at your accounts to see, you know, what’s happening in there? And they were like, the contractor owns the accounts. They’re not ours. And so we had to have a conversation with them as to, if you ever want to leave the contractor, you basically are going to have to rebuild everything from scratch in your own account.

But the reason for doing that is because you’re building an asset, paid ads is an asset, because the more you use it, the more you pay, the more you spend, the better it’s gonna get over time as long as you’re optimizing effectively. And so because they were trusting this contractor with their ads, they had no idea if they were getting return. And then basically they were tied to this contractor for life unless they wanted to start over from scratch again. So it’s really the whole.

you know, a of businesses, lot of business owners get into business because they’re passionate about something or they see an opportunity, but they ultimately then have to learn marketing in a lot of cases. And so if they don’t have the time or the interest in even learning marketing, they often then just say, we’ll find a contractor or agency or someone to do it. And then they’re essentially putting all of their trust in someone else because they don’t have the knowledge. And then they’re just putting trust into someone else that hopefully is a good solution. But

Unfortunately, it’s not always the case.

John Jantsch (05:12.802)

So, you know, over the years, marketing has gotten more complex. At least it feels that way for a lot of businesses. Certainly when digital came along and, you know, now let’s throw AI into the mix. I think a lot of a lot of business owners are just thinking, look, it’s so complex. I don’t want to deal with it. I can’t deal with it. Somebody help me. And unfortunately, you know, they’re not always working with people that they have a lot of trust in. And I hate to say it, but

Sara Nay (05:29.839)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (05:41.912)

you some businesses kind of try to over make it overly complex because it’s like, SEO is really hard. You don’t understand it. You know, you need me to, know, to do it for you. how, how can you simplify? How can you begin to simplify a small business marketing without sacrificing results?

Sara Nay (05:46.701)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (05:50.287)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (06:00.762)

Yeah, absolutely. So we used to have on our website, I don’t think we have it on there anymore, but we had something along the lines of do less, but do it brilliantly. And that always really resonated with me because a lot of small businesses are told that they need to be on this channel, on this channel, on this channel, doing this and this and this. And all of a sudden they sign up for all these accounts and they have no idea what’s actually performing well and what’s not. And so we always help people take a step back.

and actually map out the business strategy, the marketing strategy and the team strategy. And that is a great way to really simplify your marketing because you don’t need to be on every single channel. You need to deeply understand your target market. Where do they hang out online? And that’s where you should be directing your focus. And so oftentimes in small business with small teams, less channels, but doing them really well is the solution versus being spread too thin.

Also, thing I would say too is we’ve always on our team at Ducty Marketing, we’ve always hired people that we see as like trainers or leaders. That’s some of our values that we’re looking for. And so if you’re thinking about working with an outsourced solution as a business owner, make sure you’re looking for people that will come in and they’ll talk strategy from the beginning and they’ll ask you hard questions, business related questions from the beginning.

because that’s someone that’s really looking to understand what you’re actually trying to accomplish and not just copying and pasting a campaign from someone else. And so you want to look for someone that’s thinking strategically from the start, but also willing to teach you and educate you along the way. And so when we’re working with clients as a fractional CMO, like we’re creating the strategy, but then we’re meeting with our clients on a very consistent basis. And we’re not just saying,

Here’s your monthly reports and metrics that look foreign to you. We’re digesting them, we’re talking about them, we’re educating our clients with the idea of if they leave us one day, they’re gonna be set up for better success, they’re more educated, they can make better decisions moving forward in the future.

John Jantsch (07:52.737)

me.

John Jantsch (08:01.358)

Yeah, I think that’s one of the, you know, the, the crimes of a lot of, uh, tactics sellers is they, you know, they have these tools that’ll create automated reports, but you know, there’s no insight into it. And most, you know, most business owners have no idea what they’re looking at or why they should pay attention to, to one number or another. You know, you mentioned that, that idea of complexity or simplifying, you know, I think one of the major misconceptions of this idea of strategy, uh, before tactics for a lot of businesses is that they.

you know, a small business thinks, strategy, that’s just for bigger, more complex businesses that need, you know, need more things. Well, it actually is the opposite. I think in that, I think it really simplifies them. Like here’s, here’s a narrower focus here. Here’s what we do. Here’s who we’re after. mean, I think it actually does allow you to simplify what tactics you end up employing.

Sara Nay (08:52.064)

Yeah, I agree. It absolutely simplifies it. Also, I always tell people it gives purpose to your marketing. Without a strategy in place, you are playing the guessing game. And so when you take a step back and you identify your ideal client, your core message, your customer journey, like those are the three starting points. Then all of sudden you’re thinking about growth priorities and execution calendar, but all of the decisions you’re putting into the growth priorities and execution calendars

John Jantsch (08:55.214)

Right.

John Jantsch (09:15.256)

Peace.

Sara Nay (09:16.546)

are based on your ideal clients and the research you would have conducted. And so it simplifies and it gives purpose. So you’re not creating random acts of marketing essentially.

John Jantsch (09:27.458)

Yeah. So a lot of the roles in marketing, both at the business owner level, and then also at the agency level, I think are really evolving as new technology and the changes in technology. You talk about this idea of moving the people inside of organizations need to move from being doers to more like orchestrators. What does that shift look like?

Sara Nay (09:51.167)

Yeah, it’s a great question and topic I love talking about. So if you think about before AI, way back then, we had people on our team that their core role was content production. So if we had blog posts that we were writing for clients, they would do manual research, they would create an outline, they would do some more key word research, they would write the first draft.

John Jantsch (09:58.508)

last week.

Sara Nay (10:14.478)

They would edit it, they would optimize it from an SEO standpoint. They would do all of that stuff manual. So that’s an example of a very doer situation. Now with the evolution of AI, we’re able to elevate those people from doers to orchestrators where they’re using AI systems below them to help with a lot of the heavy lifting. So they’re using AI to help with keyword research, deep research, maybe even before writing any content.

John Jantsch (10:22.158)

Mm-hmm.

Sara Nay (10:40.758)

And then they’re using AI systems to help write initial drafts. And then they’re, they’re editing as humans on the back end. And so it’s still human AI human, but they’re overseeing a system and set of processes instead of being in the weeds for everything. And so it’s been interesting because it’s shifting doers from like doing all of the stuff to really almost a management role. They’re not managing people, but they’re managing systems.

And so we’ve identified that with our team and also with our clients teams as well. And so really, when you think about it that way, you’re thinking about how can AI elevate our team members, not to just make them be more productive or get a lot faster in the work that they’re doing, which I think originally is where people were thinking with AI. It’s more so how can we elevate our team to be able to spend more time being high level and creative and thinking like humans and being empathetic and understanding the big picture.

And so it’s elevating, not just replacing time.

John Jantsch (11:40.396)

So one of the big questions I think that that brings is, you know, there are people that are really good at doing, there are people that are really good at crunching numbers. You know, there are people that are really good at strategic thinking. Does this mean, I mean, can everybody make this shift, you think, to thinking more strategically, to actually writing an article and then asking AI what’s missing? You know, where are the gaps in this? I mean, that’s strategic thinking rather than doer thinking. So do you believe that that

means a lot of organizations are going to have to put different people on the bus or can they level them up?

Sara Nay (12:15.479)

I think it will be harder for some people, no questions asked. Some people are more strategic. Some people are give me a process and I’ll follow it. You know, not that strategic side of things. But I think as business leaders, our time is now to help our team level up as much as possible. Because if someone

is really great at certain tasks that AI is better at already. They’re not necessarily future-proofing their career. And so that’s why with our team, we’ve really thought about everyone individually as team members, and we’ve helped them analyze what they’re doing on a consistent basis and then identified where they should spend their focus and time moving forward. And I suggest everyone do that with their teams moving forward is…

analyze what skills they should focus on and where they need to elevate and then give them the support to be able to elevate and grow because there are certain things that we won’t be better at, we aren’t better at than AI is. so like research, for example, AI is way better research than I ever will be and ever want to be. And so if research is your thing, maybe think about how can you grow and evolve to continue to work alongside AI because that’s how you’ll become irreplaceable.

versus competing against AI.

John Jantsch (13:33.26)

Yeah, I mean, I think it’s definitely a career mindset shift. I also think that I think it can come from practice with practice, frankly. know, mean, sure, I’m used to doing it a certain way. Now with these tools, you know, it’s almost like I have a coworker is how I need to think about it. And I mean, even to the extent of I mean, I, sometimes hate how agreeable AI is.

Sara Nay (13:53.935)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (13:58.763)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (13:58.862)

You know, to the extent where you’re actually willing to go, no, tell me, tell it like it is, like challenge me on this. I think when you just, you kind of through practice, I think you can, you can actually get better. It’s basically just a process. It’s just a different process.

Sara Nay (14:03.405)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (14:13.838)

Yeah, yeah, I agree. And also you can move to be, you can learn to be more strategic as well. So if you’re listening to this and you feel like you’re an operator, an executor, your process and systems oriented, you’ve never really had that strategic side. I do think you can evolve and grow. So we’ve taken CliftonStrengths over the years. And when I first started at Duct Tape Marketing in 2010, we took one early on and I was like systems operator.

John Jantsch (14:34.243)

Right.

Sara Nay (14:39.81)

very far on that side of things. can’t remember all the language, but I was very much on that side of things. recently we took it a few years ago and I was more on the strategic side of things. And that’s just naturally how I’ve grown over my career. And so I do think you can also evolve as well if you don’t feel like you’re very strategic, put some things in place to free up some mental space to be more strategic. And I think you can grow that muscle as well.

John Jantsch (15:04.674)

Yeah, it’s interesting. Since I’ve known you all your life, I think that I can easily say this that, you know, it’s partly how you view yourself. You know, your role changed and you started viewing yourself differently, I suspect. And that probably led to some of the some of the answers in there. And I think that that, you really can look, mean, can we go as far as saying AI is a personal development tool? But I mean, it is forcing some personal development.

Sara Nay (15:09.56)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (15:29.241)

It’s okay.

John Jantsch (15:33.644)

I think for people to kind of adjust to how they’re going to live inside of that. Let’s move on to asset, the term asset. You frame marketing execution can and should be an asset inside of business, one that they own rather than rent is the term that you’ve used. What does owning execution look

Sara Nay (15:52.635)

Yeah. So we’ve talked a lot about some stories so far about people, but I would consider renting their marketing. So they were just completely relying on outsourced partners had no idea what they were doing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so that’s an example of renting. Let’s go back to owning for a small business. It really comes down to understanding the strategy behind what’s being done. And then as the founder or CEO,

John Jantsch (16:02.846)

But unfortunately, they didn’t look at the lease that they signed, right?

Sara Nay (16:20.538)

working alongside a fractional CMO or a marketing leader or a marketing strategist or an advisor, internal or external, it doesn’t matter, but someone that can really lead the marketing department. And so you’re collaborating and working with that person. So you’re in the know, you’re aware of what’s being done and the why behind it and the metrics and what’s working and not. And so as a CEO or founder, you don’t have to be a CMO, but you need to have conversations with someone that’s leading your marketing on a regular basis.

And then from there is the execution piece. think with the evolution of AI, it has made it for the first time ever, a lot more affordable for small businesses to be able to handle execution. So before everyone just, or not everyone, but a lot of people would just outsource content creation, social, SEO, paid ads, because before you would really need roles within the business for each of those areas. But now with the evolution of AI, I think is if you have marketing,

people in your department that understand those different areas, you can layer AI systems below them and they can do more than they ever had before. But when I talk about owning, like I know it doesn’t always make sense to have in-house marketing team for small businesses. So I’m not saying that’s the only solution. I think it is a great solution now. But if you’re like, I don’t want to deal with managing team or hiring, the whole idea of owning then is

John Jantsch (17:24.258)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (17:45.816)

work with a fractional CMO then that is going to bring in their own team, but they’re collaborating and working with you. And so again, the whole thing is you own what’s being done. You understand what’s being done. And you also own your website and your paid accounts and all of the assets, your chat, GPT or whatever the AI tools that are being used. Like you should own those assets because ultimately if you are going to sell the business one day,

John Jantsch (18:05.751)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (18:13.282)

you need a marketing system that you own that’s getting results that would come with the sale because that’s going to obviously increase the value.

John Jantsch (18:21.548)

Yeah. And I’d push back a little bit. I mean, I think you do have to own the strategy. You have to understand why we’re doing what we’re doing, what we’re trying to accomplish, or otherwise the SEO firm and the paid ads firm, we’re just going to rip you off. And that’s, that’s where I think people really get in trouble. let’s, let’s finish up on this term, fractional CMO, that you’ve mentioned several times. It’s, you know, the term itself has been around, I don’t know, at least 10 years. but,

Sara Nay (18:25.903)

Yes.

Sara Nay (18:32.793)

Yeah.

Yep, absolutely.

John Jantsch (18:45.166)

We have kind of coined a new phrase, I’d like to say, of the fractional CMO plus or FCMO plus. Give us a little distinction between that and the traditional kind of fractional sell a fourth of my time, you know, kind of role.

Sara Nay (18:59.322)

Yeah. And so you just identified like the traditional role is, you know, you get a fourth of my time and I come in and I advise that’s kind of in a very quick nutshell. What a lot of people think of fractional for us, when we work with clients, we come in as a fractional CMO, we create the overall strategy, but we have fractional CMO plus because it doesn’t end there. From there, we’re then able to manage internal marketing teams to up level them.

So marketing plus that, or we’re able to bring our team in to help with the execution as well. So really what we’re doing is we’re combining the agency side of things that we’ve always done with the fractional CMO side of things. And so we’re bringing strategy plus execution. And really the role of the fractional CMO is creating the strategy, working alongside the CEO.

managing all of really the marketing department in a sense, really owning the metrics and communicating those to the CEO and then also owning the budget as well.

John Jantsch (20:00.12)

Well, and increasingly building AI systems and tools inside of business. So again, it does kind of give them something tangible to own. Well, Sarah, I appreciate you stopping by for part two of the Unchained series. You want to tell people where they can find, connect with you and find more about the book Unchained or any of the work that you do as a fractional CMO.

Sara Nay (20:23.308)

Of course. So the book is unchainedmodel.com is the website. It also is going to be available on Amazon starting August 13th. Not sure when this will go live, but it’s going to be there on August 13th. Yes, it will still be there. And then obviously our website, stucktapemarketing.com and LinkedIn is a great platform to connect with me as well.

John Jantsch (20:34.946)

Well, it’ll live for a long time on the, on the ether in the ether. So, yep. Yep.

John Jantsch (20:45.942)

Awesome. Well, again, appreciate you. Stop by and hopefully we’ll see you out there on the road someday soon.

Sara Nay (20:52.314)

Thanks everyone.