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John Jantsch (00:01.142)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Stephanie Chung. She’s a bestselling author, business leader and strategic innovator with over 30 years of experience in driving growth and transforming businesses. She’s a former chief growth officer for Wheels Up and was the first African American to lead a private jet company, JetSuite. She’s also the author of a book we’re going to talk about today.

Ally leadership, how to lead people who are not like you. So Stephanie, welcome to the show.

Stephanie (00:37.496)

Thanks for having me, John. I’m excited to be here.

John Jantsch (00:40.384)

I suppose, and I typically find myself doing this, getting definitions on the table of terms that are in titles. how would you, if somebody says, I’m hearing a lot about this ally leadership thing, what is that?

Stephanie (00:53.634)

Yeah, so ally is actually an acronym. So it’s a great question, right? So the reason I didn’t write and call the book Allyship is because it’s a little bit different. So ally stands for ask, listen, learn, and you take action.

And the reason why I wrote the book, John, is because at the end of the day, the whole world’s changing, right? And we as leaders have to get on board and realize that the train has left the station and sticking our head in the sand isn’t going to be helpful for any business leader. So when you think of the work climate, right, we’ve got five, soon to be six generations working, which is unheard of. So trying to lead a boomer versus a zoomer can be a challenge all within itself.

John Jantsch (01:12.14)

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie (01:32.994)

So we have the sixth generations working. We have women as the majority of the population. So that changes the dynamics as well. And then we have the ethnic demographics that are shifting, right? So the, you know, ethnic races are growing, non-ethnic race shrinking, not to mention people with different neurodiversities or different, you know, abilities or LGBTQ plus communities. So what leaders have now is an entire workforce of people who are not like each other and not like them.

John Jantsch (02:01.804)

Right, right.

Stephanie (02:02.092)

And so the real goal is how do we lead people who are not like us? And that’s really the point behind ally leadership. The only way you’re gonna be successful is to ask, listen, learn, and then you take action.

John Jantsch (02:14.594)

You know, one of the things I find really fascinating about you writing this book, so applicable, as you just said, to many leadership roles, but we’re so used to this coming from somebody who looked like me, a white male, right? Who is saying, you’re going to work with different generations now. And so I think it’s so fabulous, but also fascinating that it’s coming from an African-American female.

Stephanie (02:28.834)

Yes. Yeah. Right.

Stephanie (02:40.782)

Well, thank you for saying that. Thank you. You have no idea because that is that was that’s actually why I wrote the book, John, because I felt like the entire conversation was, you know, Mr. White guy, you’ve got to figure out how to lead women and people of color. Right. And so so, you know, yes, I addressed that in the book because obviously I can’t, you know, avoid the elephant in the room. But I felt like the conversation needed to go deeper and wider.

John Jantsch (02:52.386)

Right, right.

Stephanie (03:04.856)

The truth of the matter is all of us, it’s not just the white guy, all of us are going to be leading people who are not like them. And so how do you do it successfully? I’ll take myself as an example. You mentioned in my bio, I come from private aviation. That is a male dominated and specifically a white male dominated industry. And yet I’ve been able to reach the highest level. And so I, as an African-American female,

John Jantsch (03:21.346)

Sure.

Stephanie (03:29.89)

was I remember and you know, I opened the book with the story on how I look at the first team I’ve been given. They’re all white men and they’re looking at me like, where’d she come from, right? And I’m looking at them like, boy, right? And so at the end of the day, know, it really isn’t just, you know, white men have to know how to lead everybody. It’s everybody has to know how to lead everybody. I always say the leader of today, John has to know how to lead all God’s children, every race, every creed, every gender. That’s the job.

And so that’s what the book is really designed for, is to hopefully give tools and to help people who find themselves in that predicament as to, here’s what I did really good, here’s what I did horribly wrong, and hopefully those tools can be helpful for them as well.

John Jantsch (04:14.306)

You know, it’s unfortunately a fact of life that a lot of people grow up without a lot of cultural diversity in their life. And so, you know, how do you, how do leaders start gaining that cultural intelligence? It’s like going to another country almost, you know, right? It’s like, I don’t know how to act here, right? So how do they gain that?

Stephanie (04:21.892)

Yeah.

Stephanie (04:30.166)

Yeah. Yeah, well, I think it’s twofold. One, you have to come to grips that you’re going to make a mistake. And I really want people to grab hold of that. It is none of us for, I shouldn’t say none of us, but most of us are not dealing with life or death situations, right? So you’re going to make a mistake. So that’s the very first thing, because what I find, John, and the reason why I open with that is I find that people are so afraid to make a mistake that they do nothing.

John Jantsch (04:38.754)

Yeah. Yes.

Stephanie (04:57.396)

Right and it’s like well if you come to grips with you’re going to make a mistake then that will ease the the the pressure I guess so that when you make the mistake then you’re okay with it because people people will know it’s about your heart It’s I always say this whole thing is a head and heart issue right if someone is and I give a story in the book about a situation that I had 30 years ago with with someone that

was so not like me and I knew that I was gonna walk in and make a bunch of mistakes, right? Because it was just unfamiliar territory for me. But what I find is people who are not like you would much rather feel like they understand that your heart is in the right place. They’d rather you talk to them than not talk to them because you’re afraid of making the mistake. So how to answer your question, how do you actually go about it?

John Jantsch (05:38.114)

This

Stephanie (05:47.188)

One, get your mindset right. I’m going to make a mistake and nobody’s going to die in this process, right? The second part is, then you come at it with a heart, which is curiosity versus dictating, right? Because nobody wants to hear your opinion on how you see the world when you don’t even understand their world.

Right? And that’s usually the biggest adjustment, especially we as leaders have to make. Nobody cares about your thoughts. What we care about is you actually trying to ask questions, not with the understanding of I’m trying to ask so that I can seem like I care. No, no, you really have to humble yourself and understand that this person’s world is completely different than mine. I don’t have enough education to start dictating to them how they should be running their life.

but I can ask questions out of sheer curiosity and truly listen. And one of the things I like to have people realize is you don’t have to have all the answers. You don’t even have to have all the questions. Just start off asking the basic questions like, know, how are you? Tell me a little bit about your upbringing, your childhood, et cetera. That will then guide you with the next set of questions. Again, I think because people are so afraid and let’s face it, society also hasn’t been very graceful.

Right? People make a mistake and society cancels people and then people are afraid to make a move because they’re afraid of being socially slaughtered or canceled. So everybody has to adjust. It’s not just the leader. The whole world has to adjust. The world is different. And if we can give each other some grace and come at it through a head and heart perspective, then we’re not that far off because we actually have much more in common than we do apart. So the easiest way to do it is ask questions, listen.

John Jantsch (07:01.055)

Mm-hmm. Peace.

John Jantsch (07:07.542)

Yeah. Yeah.

Stephanie (07:28.396)

learn and decide to ask more questions. And then use your privilege, because we all have it, right? It’s not just white people having privilege. Everybody’s got privilege. So use it whenever you can to help the other person that you’re in charge of leading.

John Jantsch (07:30.146)

Okay.

John Jantsch (07:42.262)

I suspect from the leader, a large amount of vulnerability, especially early on, has to be there too, right? I mean, to say, like in your case, you walked in, I’ve never worked with a team of all white guys. know, right? Almost like acknowledge that, right? Up front, and I’m going to make mistakes. I think that probably goes a long way to at least getting some grace in the beginning, doesn’t it?

Stephanie (07:54.968)

Yeah, right, Yep.

Stephanie (08:03.908)

Exactly. And even when we think if we go even one step further, because I know a lot of your audience are small business owners, right? One of the best things that we can do when trying to solve a problem, I used to this with my teams and I sold, you know, oversaw billion dollar sales teams. Very first thing I would do is sit down with them and go in front of a whiteboard and say, OK, listen, guys, here’s what we’re being asked to do. And I could really use your help on how you think we should do it.

Right, so when you talk about humbling yourself, it’s true in every aspect of leadership. If you really want to be an effective leader, you really have to know how to eat humble pie as your specialty, right? Because then people realize like, no one is expecting you to have all the answers. That’s true in business. It’s also true in leadership.

John Jantsch (08:31.81)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (08:40.097)

Yeah, yeah.

Stephanie (08:47.234)

And so when you’re leading people who are not like you, no one’s expecting, especially the person who’s not like you, they’re not expecting you to know everything about their lifestyle. They’re not expecting you to be familiar with the little nuances that there’s no way you would know. What they are expecting of you is that you would ask, listen, learn, and then you would take action. And the reason why I keep driving that take action home, is because you can’t call yourself an ally.

Like this isn’t a trophy, right? A participation trophy. You cannot call yourself an ally. Somebody else can call you an ally, but you can’t call yourself an ally. And the only, like, just like I can’t call myself a nice person. Like you can go, you know what, met Stephanie, she’s a nice person. But I can’t go, you know what, I’m a nice person. Like based on what, right? So same is true for ally. You know, you, you, when you take action, people will see it and then they will say, you’re an ally.

If they don’t see it, they’re not gonna say it. And just because you said it doesn’t make it true.

John Jantsch (09:46.764)

Yeah. So is there an example of kind of a challenging moment that you had that you think really not only tested your ability, but maybe kind of informed some of what shows up in the book?

Stephanie (10:00.3)

Yeah, there’s a story. It seems like it’s everybody’s favorite story. So I won’t go too far into it because I won’t spoil it for your listeners. But I tell a story about I was asked to meet with a person because at the time I was in the cosmetic industry and this friend of mine who was a behavioral specialist had asked if I would meet with one of her patients. And I was like, sure, know, no problem because the patient had a desire to get into the makeup cosmetic industry. And so I just want to pick my brain.

So once I said yes, then she shared with me that this person was transgender. Now this was 30 years ago, John. So I honestly had never heard the word, right? I didn’t know anything about transgender. I didn’t know what it meant. Like I just didn’t know. And so once she told me that and I said yes, then I told her,

teach me, educate me, like what does this actually mean mentally, physically, you know, the whole thing, right? I need to be armed so that I don’t look like a complete idiot right now in this luncheon. And so she did her best. But what was interesting, and I tell this story from several different perspectives, what was interesting is when I had that meeting at the restaurant with the transgender person.

John Jantsch (10:57.303)

Yeah

Stephanie (11:11.78)

And I tell the story from my perspective sitting there, from the restaurant attendees perspective sitting there, because again, this was 30 years ago, it wasn’t like recently, right? And just every single role that happened as you’re looking at someone, in my case, as a person who’s not like me. Now, I’m used to walking into a restaurant and maybe being the only woman or being the only black person or what have you. So I understand the dynamics that go on there. But what I saw and witnessed from

their, you know, from what the dynamics were for them walking in the room was very, very different. Something I’d never seen before. And so that’s an example. And again, I won’t go really deep into the story because I spent a lot of time on this story because I know that everybody who reads the book can find themselves in that restaurant scene. I never give, you know, direction as to what’s right, what’s wrong. That’s not for me to do. But what it does do is I promise you, when you read the book, you’re going to find yourself in one of those settings.

either as the wait staff or the person sitting in the restaurant or the person sitting across the person or and and you will find yourself there and Literally probably have a moment of like wow because I in the chapter with what would you have done? Right. So yeah, this book is for making people think John

John Jantsch (12:23.892)

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Awesome.

So, unfortunately, we know there are a percentage of people that are biased and bigoted. I mean, they’re just there. However, there are a lot of really well-intentioned people that have pretty deep, unconscious biases. They don’t mean to have them. They don’t mean to have them show up the way they show up. how do people, especially this leader that you’re talking about, how do you get people to start recognizing and overcoming those?

Stephanie (12:36.824)

Yeah, that’s how it is. Yep.

Stephanie (12:45.656)

Sure. Yep.

Stephanie (12:55.692)

Yeah, that’s such a great question because what I love is that you started with the fact that we all have it. There is nobody, nobody that doesn’t have it. one of the best ways to get over it is to, once you realize, okay, I’ve got it, is just to realize I have to, I’ve been programmed to see people a certain way.

Period, right? Doesn’t mean it’s right or wrong. It’s just what I’ve been programmed. And I do spend some time in the book talking about the science behind unconscious and conscious bias, because it really does start, again, I go as a head and heart issue, right? The brain is gonna do what it finds the easiest thing to do. And so the brain will, if it sees something that’s not familiar or not like it, right, for part of it, sometimes bias is actually a good thing, believe it or not, because there’s a safety mechanism part of that as well.

Now, when it gets becoming bad is when you’re judging everybody and of clumping them in there and you’re in group or out group with absolutely no conversation to be had or because you’ve read something and you’ve never actually met a person like that. So the very first thing that we have to do is to realize that we all got it. The second thing you have to do is really to over to because our default system is to automatically put people whenever we meet them and we can just be looking at a picture of them. We don’t have to physically be having a conversation.

Our brain will put them in an in-group or out-group. First thing it does, it’s an instinct that you can’t change, right? Those are from our caveman days. And again, there is safety in that. However, what you can change is to override that default system. And how you override it is by making the unfamiliar familiar. And the only way you make the unfamiliar familiar is to literally step out of your comfort zone. Simple stuff you can do, right? Go into a neighborhood that you’re not used to going to.

You know, and usually in different neighborhoods, they have museums that are there. They have different restaurants. They have different cultural activities that you can do, galleries, et cetera. You must take the bull by the horns. You will not get culturally fluent sitting on your couch or hanging out in your same neighborhood with your same people, working the same job, having the same conversation. That’s not how it works. But if you’re serious about this, and I hope that every leader is, because again, world’s changing. Train has left the…

John Jantsch (14:55.19)

questions.

Stephanie (15:10.936)

building. Either you’re going to jump on board or you’re going to be left behind. Those are your two options. But if you’re that person who says, okay, I realize I don’t know everything and nor do I need to, I’m going to make that effort. So now what I’m going to do is, you if I have a neighbor that maybe I’ve never spent time talking to, maybe have them over for coffee and get to know them and ask them questions. Or you don’t want to do that. Go to a neighborhood that you’ve never really spent a whole lot of time through. You know where it is.

go in there, go to the museum, go to the local small business, talk, shop, ask questions. All of that is just mechanisms that will help you get more familiar so that when your brain meets somebody who’s not like you, it doesn’t automatically stick it in the out group. But now that person becomes a little bit more familiar. Or at least people who fall under that category. It’s simple things. And the reason why I keep making it really, like do step one, step two, step three.

is because I feel like part of the problem that we’ve got in society, John, is people feel like this is this big, grandiose situation. And because the bigger it gets, the more overwhelming it gets, and the more scarier it gets, and the less we do. But if I just say to you, listen, you’re going to make mistakes, accept that, right? And then make those little steps here and there, you’re going to feel like, OK, all right, I’ve got permission. And what I will tell you, especially as a person of color,

John Jantsch (16:21.771)

Yes.

Eh.

Stephanie (16:31.126)

You know, you can tell when people are coming and asking you questions because they really do want to know versus they’re asking you questions because they’re trying to trap you or get you, you know, put your defenses or trigger you or gaslight you, whatever. Everybody knows. Right. So if your head and your heart is in the right place, you would be so surprised on how welcoming people would be to actually have that conversation with you.

John Jantsch (16:53.196)

Yeah. So I guess if talking about going to that neighborhood, if you really want the MBA, like the crash course, go to the beauty salon, right? Or the barbershop. So, you know, it’s interesting. Obviously, I know where you’re going with, you know, lead people who are not like you. But really, nobody’s like me. Right. And so, and so some of the practices you’re talking about really are just human

Stephanie (17:00.78)

Yeah, right? Or the barbershop, right? Exactly.

Stephanie (17:14.754)

Yes. Yep. Exactly,

John Jantsch (17:23.266)

contact practices aren’t.

Stephanie (17:24.772)

100%. It’s all about human connection, right? And as leaders or small business owners, we’re in the people business, period. And people, really, we were designed, we were created for human connection. We are best when we’re connected. If you look on the news, there’s always that story that we all hate, but at the end of the day, the core is they didn’t have anybody that they were connected to.

John Jantsch (17:48.758)

Yeah.

Stephanie (17:48.76)

Right? And so human connection is really why we were created. So what my whole focus with the book is to really drive home the point that you just said. None of us are alike. Right? I mean, we are wonderfully made. You know, we’re unique in so many different ways. And so and that is if you if you start there, then then automatically it makes you realize also that people are not better or worse than you.

Right? because sometimes that’s the issue as well. If you feel like you’re better than other people, then you’re going to treat them a certain way. But if you realize that you’re no better than everybody else, right? We’re all wonderfully made. Then that allows you to come into the conversation with a different heart stance, which then allows the person who you’re speaking to to receive you a certain way as well.

John Jantsch (18:35.82)

So what are some of the barriers that, you know, we always have to drag out, like, here’s the hard part. What are some of the barriers that you’ve seen have really prevented leaders from truly embracing this approach?

Stephanie (18:42.606)

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie (18:48.426)

Usually it’s when they make a mistake, they may have said something wrong or come off the wrong way, and then all of a sudden they’re chastised. And then that kind of scathing review makes them never want to do it again. So that’s usually what I’ve seen. The flip side though, because we do talk a lot, especially in our country, about inclusivity and things of that nature.

John Jantsch (18:52.791)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (19:00.001)

Yeah, right.

John Jantsch (19:10.518)

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie (19:11.64)

What we don’t really talk about the fact that leading diverse teams actually can be very challenging. And it’s not because the team is diverse, right? A diverse team, there’s enough statistics out there, diverse teams simply perform better. So from a sheer business perspective, it just makes good business sense to create a team of all-stars versus, you know, just like in sports, right? Nobody’s gonna have a basketball team with all forwards.

Right? Like you’re never going to win. So you have to have a team where everybody plays a different position, has a different gift, talent, et cetera. And that then means that the team has to, by default, be diverse. Because people think of diversity as far as just race, diversity in communication, diversity of how they think, diversity of perspective. mean, diversity is a big word that covers a lot of things. So that’s the first thing. But that’s usually what happens is people feel like they’ve made a mistake. And so that’s what stops them in their tracks.

John Jantsch (19:34.23)

Right, right.

Stephanie (20:03.064)

But the flip side is what I would say is yes, leading a diverse team can be hard, not because of the team, but because you’ve got to make sure that you’re letting everybody speak their piece and how they may speak their piece because how they see the world may be very, very different.

So as a leader, you gotta have like real leadership skills, right? To make sure that you can manage those conversations and the differences that will come from it and the different perspectives because that’s the secret sauce and how you get a different, more powerful result, right? But you as a leader have to check yourself. If you’re kind of an okay leader, this is gonna be tough, right? But if you’re a real leader that is very strong in communication and bringing out the best in people and you’re secure enough.

John Jantsch (20:32.322)

you

Stephanie (20:46.286)

to be able to allow people to challenge each other or even challenge your thought process. Now you’ve got a team that is unstoppable because if you get a bunch of people presented and focused on a common cause, literally will live, like they will not be stopped. But that’s the job of the leader. What are we doing? Why are we doing it? And what is it the role that you play as to how this business is successful?

John Jantsch (21:09.426)

It’s funny you talk about that diversity. I’ve always contended the best marriages are very diverse. Individuals, right? And the best partnerships in business. People bring a whole different side of it. How does a leader create a safe place for employees, psychologically safe place for employees, given what you’ve been talking about?

Stephanie (21:14.048)

Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes.

I love that. I love that.

Stephanie (21:30.648)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The easiest way to do it literally is that when people voice their opinion, you almost want to create healthy confrontation, right? And so how you do that is, you I used to have one of the best CEOs I ever worked for. He mastered this. He had come over, taken over the organization.

And what he realized very quickly is that the team got along to get along, right? So there was, know, and if anybody didn’t agree, then instead of bringing it up in the middle of that executive meeting, they would then not say anything. And then the meeting’s over and we know the type, right? And then they go to the water cooler and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, So it drove him crazy. And that was just a dysfunction of how the team was used to operate.

John Jantsch (22:09.814)

Yep, yep, yep.

Stephanie (22:14.532)

because the environment wasn’t as such where you could actually voice the fact that you maybe didn’t agree with, you know, your colleague or what have you. So one of the very first things that he did, and it’s funny, I used to watch him do that, and then every company I’ve ever overseen, I’ve done the same thing, where he would try to get us to break that dysfunctional habit, right? And the way that he would do it is I would say he’d drop a grenade in the middle of the, get us all worked up, and then he’d leave.

Now we’re all, you know, crazy and we’ve got to like work it out because we’ve got to come to some kind of consensus. and that’s one way that leaders can do it at the beginning. It feels a little uncomfortable, both for the team and for the leader, because you’re almost stirring up stuff. Right. But I’d much rather have a team that is like, you know, disagreeing in a respectful way, but at the end of the day can all get on board. And when we walk off the doors, we’re all in unison. That’s the goal.

right? But you really as leaders running companies or teams or divisions, the whole point is that you must hear all the different perspectives. That’s how you’re going to be get a competitive advantage out there. And so if you don’t allow people to do that, then you know, the emperor has no clothes, right? We’re all seeing they’re going, yes, it’s all it’s a wonderful product. This new thing you’ve created. In the meantime, people are thinking this is this.

Sucks, right? This product never going to get off the ground and nobody feels like they’re safe enough to be able to say it. So how you create safe psychological safety within a workplace is to literally get people comfortable with the uncomfortable conversations. And a lot of times as leaders, we actually have to start that because they won’t do it naturally. So we kind of have to start it by saying, well, you know what, John, know that Stephanie said this, but you know, looks like the look on your face says that you disagree. Tell me more.

right? And then force you to say, well, the reason, you know, and you’re going to, you’re going to tip toe around it at the beginning. Well, it’s not that I don’t disagree. It’s just, think there’s another way to do it. Great. Well, tell me more. Right. And so you’re going to keep forcing people to get to that point where they, can, you can watch them. They’re feeling uncomfortable saying it. They’re like, well, I just don’t think her idea is good. Great. Well, tell me why. What’s your idea? What can, how can we do this better? Right. So just forcing those conversations. Once people realize that when they do it and they say it,

John Jantsch (24:25.995)

Yes.

Stephanie (24:37.314)

and nothing bad happens to them, the next meeting they’re more likely to do it. And then the next meeting they’re more likely to do it. And that’s how we change the culture.

John Jantsch (24:46.114)

And it’s funny. I feel like when people are in a room together, we’re a little more guarded about our body language. People are so easy to detect on Zoom, right? Because we think, nobody’s actually here with me, you know, so I can roll my eyes and nobody will know. It’s funny. Well, Stephanie, it was so great having you stop by the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. Where would you invite people to connect with you and find out more about how to lead people who are not like you?

Stephanie (24:56.514)

Yes, exactly. Right. So true.

Thank you.

Stephanie (25:14.588)

Absolutely. They are welcome to come onto my website, StephanieChung.com, or I’m on all the socials, LinkedIn, TikTok, Instagram, at the Stephanie Chung. But StephanieChung.com is probably the quickest way to get to me and that. And yeah, for those of you that are leading out there, I hope this book will serve as a tool to help you have the best team so you can get the best results.

John Jantsch (25:36.13)

Well, again, thanks for stopping by and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Stephanie (25:40.58)

I love it. Thanks so much for having me, John. Bye bye now.

John Jantsch (25:43.532)

Ha.