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John Jantsch (00:00.942)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is John Grabowski, Jonathan Grabowski. He’s the co-founder and chief marketing officer at Pengey, an on-demand graphic design platform that provides businesses with unlimited custom design services at a flat monthly fee. Pengey connects clients with top tier designers, delivering completed projects within 48 hours.

So we’re gonna talk about design, graphic design, and maybe how AI is impacting that industry as well. So Jonathan, welcome to the show.

Johnathan (00:35.032)

Thank you so much for having me. I’ve been a fan and we’ve known each other for some time now and excited to explore the podcast and any questions that you may have.

John Jantsch (00:43.982)

So I started to introduce you as John. I don’t think my official name is Jonathan. I’ve always just been John. Is Jonathan always been your thing or did it ever get shortened?

Johnathan (00:54.24)

Yeah, so yeah, so my there are probably about like three people on planet Earth that call me John like every day. My mother who unfortunately passed away about five ish years or so ago was very, particular about Jonathan and pretty much corrected them and scolded them anytime anybody ever said John. So I’ve always just been Jonathan, you know.

John Jantsch (01:00.206)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (01:11.799)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (01:17.09)

Yeah. Well, you know, we, share a Kansas city connection. So I’ll share this story. I was listening to a sports announcer who was calling our quarterback Pat Mahomes. and the other announcer says his mother has scolded me frequently. is Patrick. so he shares that as well with his mother. So

Johnathan (01:33.002)

Nice. That’s great. And I do have a little bit something over you being that we beat you guys in the Super Bowl this past year.

John Jantsch (01:43.83)

Yeah, that wasn’t very fun to watch, I’ll give you that. the name Pengey, it’s probably on your website somewhere. Anytime I see like a kind of a different, unique name, was there some story behind that?

Johnathan (01:47.415)

Heh heh.

Johnathan (01:59.318)

Yeah, great question. I don’t really share too much about it because people aren’t as curious as you may think. So when we first started, we had this idea of like, well, if you were to slow down the name PNG, you would ultimately lead to a particular file extension that is related to graphic design.

John Jantsch (02:05.38)

No, that’s true.

John Jantsch (02:23.31)

Huh, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. What is that programable network graphic or something? I can’t even remember. Yeah.

Johnathan (02:28.811)

And so.

Yes, exactly right. So it’s pretty much PNG. Now, PNG speeding it up, of course, and that’s related to the graphic design. So although we are originally a graphic design company, we’ve kind of morphed into more of like a creative services that expand well beyond, but kind of paying respect to the graphic design aspect that it is PNG, but it technically came from PNG.

John Jantsch (02:56.612)

Well, now I’m really glad I asked that question because that’s a great story. know, a of times people are like, yeah, I just saw it there. heard it and I thought it sounded cool. The domain was available, but that’s a great story. All right.

Johnathan (02:59.992)

Yeah.

Johnathan (03:04.959)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we, I remember very vividly, it was like 12, one o’clock, two o’clock in the morning when my co-founder and I were talking about it we’re just like, you know, putting things together and that was the one that stuck. So.

John Jantsch (03:17.156)

That’s awesome. So was there any particular vision? Like, you know, a lot of people start companies because like I couldn’t find good graphic design myself. So I started a company. there, was there any story or vision like that?

Johnathan (03:30.166)

Yeah, I would say…

I’m not a graphic designer. So, and we were a digital marketing agency. We sucked. Um, we probably didn’t use the duct tape marketing system, uh, in order for us to grow. Uh, we were terrible. So we basically, uh, but the one thing that people always said was we were really good at graphic design. And then we decided to kind of like niche down and say, this is our, this is what we’re selling. We turned it into a product high service.

and it obviously focused very heavily on graphic design. Obviously now it’s a little bit more expanded beyond just graphic design as the world of AI and marketing as a whole, it becomes necessary. finding people, finding reliable people, hiring people is a pain in the absolute butt. It’s terrible. I don’t like hiring people simply because of

There’s so many aspects of it. The emotional aspect is this person a good product fit into the culture of the business? Are they actually good at their job? Are they just telling you that they’re good at their job even though they’re not good at their job? I mean, there’s a lot of fundamental factors. So like what if there was a solution where you could go onto a website, hire immediately and find and talk to somebody who is reliable and good, inherently good at what they could do and can pretty much turn things around within the timeframe that you’re looking for.

That is really the ethos behind Penge and how it started. It’s just like, we got good at one particular thing. We got credit for it, turned it into a business and here we are today.

John Jantsch (05:08.285)

And I think the last time you and I talked, I mean, it’s not just you and another person sitting around a room anymore, right? I mean, it’s you’ve built quite an organization.

Johnathan (05:16.95)

Yeah, I mean, at this point, we have over just about 500 people and we have thousands of customers all across the country, all across the world. And the problems that I had then, just getting it off the ground, now the problems are completely different. And they’re more meaningful and impactful because if you make a mistake, you have lives of other people that are going to be hurt or be

better off because of your decision making. then so it’s just systematically you have to become more systematic and more thoughtful in your approach to every day rather than just kind of be like, hey man, what are we doing today? Like

John Jantsch (05:56.632)

Right. So, you know, I’ve preached for years strategy before tactics. A lot of people view even design projects, know, we need a brochure. We need a banner. We need a logo. And there’s really no thought given to it. It’s just like, yeah, okay. I like that one. How do you help businesses kind of establish maybe a brand identity as opposed to just doing one off projects?

Johnathan (06:21.09)

Yeah, I mean, that’s actually a pretty hard thing because a lot of times our customers don’t necessarily have like they primarily most of our customers already have existing brands in addition to they are actually digital marketing agencies. So from like a business standpoint, we assess it no differently than a than a typical project. The core differentiation, in my opinion, if you were to hire like a service like PENGIE versus that of like an agency, an agency is probably going to be able to sit down and talk to you and kind of go over like the fundamental

John Jantsch (06:32.398)

Yes.

John Jantsch (06:46.852)

Yeah, give you a creative brief. Yeah.

Johnathan (06:48.696)

Correctly. Creative Breeze can talk to you for several hours and be able to do that. We’re very factual with what it is that you’re looking for and we’re very project oriented or visual oriented. So if you have a new company, it’s the art director’s job to find out more about your company. And then you have to provide us a visual. And what I found personally is that, and maybe you could attest to this too, John, like, if somebody just tells you, I want this and you’re like,

Well, what the hell does this look like? correct, correct, correct. That is like literally the worst thing that you can say on planet Earth. Like, I know when I say, OK, well, that’s really nice to hear that. But like, listen, bro, I need something in your brain. I need a sliver of your brain to understand what the hell you’re trying to do. So we start there first. And if you can’t provide a visual, to be honest with you, we don’t really want you as a client.

John Jantsch (07:20.356)

I’ll know it when I see it.

John Jantsch (07:41.656)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Johnathan (07:48.248)

Because like you’re going to fail in Pengey. And honestly, like that’s the biggest piece of Pengey’s success and lack thereof is the the customers not communicating efficiently and effectively. And you would be surprised at how bad at times entrepreneurs and business professionals are at communicating. And what I found is that the designers are actually the best like

the teams aspects like the when a designer works at as a customer works at Pengey, they’re the best customers because they have the empathy and the understanding that is needed to articulate a project. Whereas like a founder is very like, I need this done, I need it done tomorrow, I need it done right now, and it needs to be done, you know, in 1080p, the 18 different styles and please give it to me ASAP. Like, and those are great customers and they can work but.

John Jantsch (08:18.404)

you

Johnathan (08:45.032)

communication is so, important.

John Jantsch (08:49.39)

So do you find that you either you don’t, I mean, you fire that customer or do you find that you are moving a little more towards being a consultant on brand strategy?

Johnathan (09:03.33)

Yeah, think there’s a well, so number one, my claim to fame is that I fired more customers than people. And I’m very quick to be able to say, listen, this isn’t a good fit. And it’s OK. I think I think that discipline is really important when it comes to business. If you focus all of your time and energy on the loudest customers and problems, I don’t think you will ever complete anything ever because you always just be putting out fires.

John Jantsch (09:24.141)

Yes.

Johnathan (09:31.01)

But when it comes to the consultancy, yeah, I think that’s like a core differentiation between us and like probably our competitors is that there’s a human aspect. And I think that’s like the approach that we’re looking for is the human element of talking to our customers, understanding them, getting, letting them know that the project is completed or the project is being worked on. And that is kind of like the differentiation between us and like AI. You can easily use AI.

John Jantsch (09:57.506)

Mm-hmm.

Johnathan (09:59.254)

And it works great. Like we use the AI at Pengey all the time. But I think the reason why you sign up for a service like Pengey is because you want that human interaction.

John Jantsch (10:09.828)

Do you have, and I do want to dive into the AI a little bit. I didn’t want to go straight there though. So set the table a little more. Do you have any examples of that you can think of and you don’t have to share names if you don’t want to, but where the work that you’ve done, your team’s done has kind of significantly impacted a brand’s perception or maybe even success.

Johnathan (10:31.606)

Yeah, there is a two things, a very, I’ll try to say it without saying it, very reputable university and institution that is located in Philadelphia and Pennsylvania that we have worked with for multiple years, created slideshows.

presentations basically, where the presentations were then presented to making change internally within the infrastructure of the business. So I can’t necessarily go into detail, but if you kind of use my words, you can kind of put two and two together. We’ve instrumentally made the presentations that were made and the conversations that we had with that team has made significant

changes in the business structure, the acquisition of multiple other institutions and hospitals and things like that. And then in addition to that, serving people that have illnesses and things like that. has that’s just one from in like a feel good type of one. Then there’s another one that’s also located in Philadelphia, which I’m not going to be able to go into with the specific name, but it is a delivery service.

John Jantsch (11:45.891)

Mm-hmm.

Johnathan (11:55.63)

where we pretty much were able to incrementally help their brand from beginning to I would say very close to IPO. I don’t necessarily know if what we did specifically orchestrated the growth of what it is because I think a lot of it has to do with strategy. But from a visual standpoint and the advertising and execution behind that advertising allowed that company to grow exponentially.

John Jantsch (12:25.38)

Yeah, I think a lot of businesses, most businesses quite frankly, really underestimate the value of the visual aspects of their brand. And I think that, I think it can make a huge difference. It doesn’t mean you have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on, was H &R Blocks, another Kansas City company, they years ago redid it and they basically, their new logo was this square green block. You’ve probably seen it because they use it now.

And I was talking to their marketing person and they’d spent $150,000 on that logo. And I was like, it’s a square green block. But, but I do think that companies, you know, who really get that idea, you know, are willing to invest and do spend a lot of money on the right look and the right feel because it supports the overall message. then, you know, ultimately makes people feel good about doing business with the company.

Johnathan (12:56.994)

Hmm. Yeah. Yep.

Johnathan (13:16.086)

Yeah, I would actually like on on the slight contrary, I would say I would love to understand the amount of money that was wasted on the on indecisions of, you know, founding partners or executives and things like that. Because I think that’s like where kind of in my opinion, that’s where the beauty of PNG is, is because it decreases the inefficiencies of the actual graphic design process. So like, you could have easily asked for within a month’s time frame, you could easily ask for

John Jantsch (13:24.171)

sure.

John Jantsch (13:28.356)

Sure, sure.

John Jantsch (13:39.225)

Yeah.

Johnathan (13:44.622)

500 different variations of the of the H &R block square and I can almost guarantee you that there’s something in there that’s going to be moderately decent if not the the one But yeah, I find it interesting as well

John Jantsch (13:52.964)

Yeah, Yeah, but you didn’t, you didn’t do focus groups and you know, mean.

Johnathan (14:02.21)

Yeah, I mean, that’s a different ball game, right? Like, that’s just like that’s that’s a client that I would say we love the revenue. But at the same time, I don’t know if I want to get involved in it because there’s just so much emotion that that’s just not the company, you know.

John Jantsch (14:12.034)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (14:17.4)

Well, and of course, you know, when they, the other thing with the company that’s that, that publicly known too, when they rolled it out, then they had to take all kinds of crap about it. know, it’s like, I can’t believe that.

Johnathan (14:25.924)

gosh, Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that’s always interesting, the world of marketing nowadays of how sensitive a lot of people are in social media. I think it’s OK to have opinions, obviously, but like, man, like one bad thing could absolutely destroy a company. And that is actually very true in the world of business, too. If you’re not making the right decisions, one wrong move can just fundamentally destroy trust, can fundamentally destroy

John Jantsch (14:34.244)

Yeah.

Johnathan (14:54.891)

the business and myself and my co-founder hold that to very high regard.

John Jantsch (14:56.056)

Yes.

John Jantsch (15:00.334)

Let’s talk a little bit about AI. know, the AI graphic tools are getting better, but I still think that they are not there to where like the normal user could just, you know, grab anything and have a whole set of, of, you know, images and visuals. What tools are you adopting? What tools, I mean, how are you using AI in the whole design workflow?

Johnathan (15:24.012)

Yeah, we love AI. We use AI every single day. Are there specific tools? None that I could say. But when it comes to internally, we use AI for pretty much everything. However, I don’t feel the I’m not afraid of AI terminating a business like ours, because I think from a business standpoint, one of two things

John Jantsch (15:27.172)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (15:39.15)

Right.

Johnathan (15:52.896)

We as humans are very human driven creatures and want that human interaction regardless. And right now, as you said, and I don’t think even in the next five, 10 years, unless there’s some type of way in order to get people to think for you, you need a human being to submit these AI prompts and you need AI to at least make modifications. Even if you use do it yourself models, there needs to be some human touching it. So

John Jantsch (15:56.536)

Mm-hmm.

Johnathan (16:22.07)

With that said, I don’t think there’ll ever be a need for full on AI specifically, but I do think that it’s a necessary tool for that every company should be implementing right now.

John Jantsch (16:37.038)

about designers? mean, you hire a lot of designers, you probably talk to thousands of folks that want to, you know, kind of come into your stable. Do you have any advice that somebody who’s learning design, you know, today about embracing AI or how like their relationship with AI needs to be?

Johnathan (16:55.35)

Yeah. I mean, I think you’d be foolish not to use it to be honest with you. mean, like, for example, if a client comes up to us and says, Hey, I need a, a project, right. Done. Okay, cool. I need it done 12 hours. Well, we could use AI, right. And give them at least like 90 % of where it needs to be. Ask the client, Hey, what’s the stat? Like, what do you think of this? And then make them the proper modifications in order to, in order to make it 100 % custom and unique to the person. that is at times how we use AI.

John Jantsch (16:58.104)

Yeah, yeah.

Johnathan (17:26.016)

It just depends on a case by case basis. But again, you can’t, in my opinion, I don’t think you can make anything custom directly from AI. It’s passable at best. And it can be used if you’re okay with the ultimate solution. But if you want something on brand and if you want something specific to your company, it just, right now at least, you need a human being.

John Jantsch (17:50.018)

Yeah, if nothing else, think, you know, I still find that the human being is going to bring empathy, is going to bring strategy, is going to bring context. You know, a lot of times design has to be done in the context of a family of designs or the context of, you know, what the service offering is. And I think that at least for right now, we’re certainly not there with AI.

Johnathan (18:14.102)

Yeah, 100%. I mean, I mean, like, I think the best phrase to use in this and I kind of say this at times to some, like to our salespeople is like, imagine going into AI and saying, Hey, could you please put a photo of a family? Right? Like the word family is so different to so many people. You know, it could be a man and a woman, it could be same sex, like family, it could be you and a dog, like it doesn’t really

John Jantsch (18:30.404)

You

Johnathan (18:42.946)

there’s no boundaries to that. And I think like that’s where you said, John, very, very eloquently is like the empathy behind it is the understanding of like, who is your target audience? Who are the people that you’re trying to go to? So I would say like, if a designer is listening right now and they’re trying to figure out themselves, well, how do I take my business to the next level? I would say understand the other person’s business to the fullest extent and have some level of empathy and conversation skills that you can display to understand the company in full.

because that’s why people are actually buying. They’re not necessarily buying. In our business, they’re probably buying because of the service because it’s very obvious. Hey, you get unlimited graphic design for this particular cost. like for our business specifically, it’s very numbers driven and very like direct, right? But I would say for a business or like an agency or something like that, they’re probably buying you, right? Now in our world, they’re buying the product, but they’re staying because of the human. And that’s…

John Jantsch (19:33.55)

Yeah.

Johnathan (19:41.398)

a little bit of a different buying process, but at the same, it’s still we’re buying from other people. We’re staying because we love X person or X designer. And I think if you were to look at our reviews versus our competitors, we get reviews pretty much one to two times a day from every other day, at least from our customers. And it’s because of how we make them feel. But if you were to look at the landscape, there isn’t a single company

that’s genuinely writing reviews about the service, except for a business like ours because of the way the emotional reaction that our customers are having to our team.

John Jantsch (20:18.648)

You know, it’s interesting. I’ve, I, you know, we, we review companies reviews as part of our strategy process. I’ve read millions of reviews and it I’m struck by how often, how, how infrequently the company’s actually mentioned. It’s always rusty fixed my boiler and he was amazing. he was like, I don’t even know the name of the company. and I think that people really, underestimate the, the, that experience is such a big part of, of getting that positive reaction.

Johnathan (20:35.496)

Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah.

Johnathan (20:47.662)

Yeah, I mean, just look at all the best companies in the world. I mean, you have Disney, right? Like my father’s in Disney. This is why I brought it up without us. And I think he’s a selfish piece of crap for going there by himself and not inviting me. No, I’m just kidding. When you leave Disney World, like you feel, wow, man, they made my child feel so happy, right? Or, man, I feel like a kid again. Like these are all things that you’re constantly thinking about. And if we can alleviate just like an

John Jantsch (20:59.172)

you

Johnathan (21:16.042)

ounce of that effort and that stress that you probably have in your business day to day. It’s a world of hurt. And specifically from like the people that are listening to this, I want to also give like business advice too. We actually train our sales, excuse me, our support people to find a personal element to that person. Right? And so I’ll give you a quick story. And speaking of names, I’ll mention the person’s names, but a gentleman by the name of Pepe found out somehow some way

that, that one of our clients birthdays was that specific day. He didn’t say anything or, or, or mentioned anything. He, send him a Google meet or whatever to like talk. And then he changed his background and we never told him to do this like specifically, but we do teach the aspect of having that level of empathy. He had a happy birthday sign in the background and pretty much had like a hat on and a, and like a

a string of something like that to celebrate the guy’s birthday. And he was just like thrilled and overjoyed. And it’s just like those small little things where it’s like the reason why people are staying at Penge and remaining customers isn’t the graphic design. It’s how the people, how our team is making them feel.

John Jantsch (22:18.434)

That’s fun. Yeah.

John Jantsch (22:29.056)

Awesome. Well, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the duct tape marketing podcast. Where do you want to invite people or where would you invite people to find out more about PNG connect with you?

Johnathan (22:38.668)

Yeah, absolutely. Penji.co. If you feel inclined to be able to become a customer, that’d be amazing. But if I provided even an ounce of value at all, and if you need help in your life or business, I’d be more than happy to assist. That’s kind of my purpose, in my opinion, on this plan is to help other people. Email me, Jonathan, J-O-H-N-A-T-H-A-N at penji.co. I’d be more than happy to provide you my time to help you any way that I can.

John Jantsch (23:06.786)

Awesome. Well, again, it’s great catching up with you again, and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Johnathan (23:11.928)

Sounds good, brother.